Keith, thank you.
I hope those who are considering this route will follow those links and carefully weigh what you've said. Alas, I'm starting to believe that most people who opt for self-publishing fall into at least one of three categories: 1) the angriest people you've ever encountered -- too angry to listen, 2) the entitled, who want and deserve it all and want it right now, and are unable to hear criticism about any of their choices and 3) the ignorant who are too impatient to change that status with a little research.

Often, they don't seem willing to accept basic facts about the book business, holding fast to rare exceptions rather than admitting what is really going on in self-publishing.
One of those facts is that there are whole industries that make more money off those who dream than they do by selling books.
But you've just heard that so-and-so sold his self-published book to Random House? Guess how many other books were published by Random House that were not? Guess how many self-published books sold fewer than 100 copies? If you want to be the exception that makes it, please play the lottery. Your chances are better, it will cost you less, and take up less of your time.
Want to self-publish because your genius is unappreciated by the cabal of agents and publishers who spend most of their day trying to figure out how to keep talented people from being heard? There are legions misunderstood geniuses who would be glad of your company. They need you to post fake glowing reviews on Amazon and mention them in posts to fan lists, where you can pretend you are not seen for what you are.
There are legions of them, and there are also legions of companies who will be glad of your dollars, now including some that will let you pay for a review in their magazine.

I hope, Keith, that your blog will at least tempt a few people to think twice before joining them.

Jan

Hey, thanks, Jan! I hope more people will speak up. All it takes is one blog or newsgroup post with the word "PublishAmerica" in it, and it'll come up whenever an unsure writer goes to Google to see whether they're legit.

Everybody, this is Jan, Edgar-winning mystery author and past president of the Southern California chapter of the Mystery Writers of America. Jan, this is everybody.

Everybody click over to Jan's site and buy her books.

Very kind of you, Keith.

I want to add another note, now that I've vented a bit.

Every now and then, I meet self-published authors who are talented, hard-working writers who are spending enormous amounts of energy promoting their books. I don't want anyone to claim that I'm saying only the untalented are self-published, or that all other published authors are talented. That would be ridiculous on its face.

I've met a few people who had reasons for trying self-publishing -- their themes were so far out of the mainstream that it was unlikely they'd find a place with a commericial publisher; their backlist was out-of-print, but a few fans would buy them if available; a few created non-fiction books, and after careful research into marketing and distribution, decided to publish their own works.

But on the whole, I still believe this is not the best way for a new writer of fiction to go. It's a nearly hopeless longshot at best, likely to be a scam at worst. It is highly unlikely that you'll get what you need to go to the next level of success.

But do new writers have a chance? YES! New writers are published every year, and not just by the a handful. Take a look at any major publishers' Web site and you'll see that not all of their books are written by a few superstars. That's a myth designed to make you lose hope and buy into the scam artists' sales pitch. Don't believe it!

If you are a new writer with a first manuscript, please look for representation by an agent who can help you make a sale to a major publisher or to a reputable small press. Go to http://www.sfwa.org/beware and other sites belonging to established professional writers' organizations to learn about scams.

You worked hard to write the book. Honor that hard work by finding a good home for it.

Jan

That's probably a good thing for me to clarify, too: I don't believe all unpublished writers are untalented either--just poking around Journalscape reveals all kinds of talent, some of which hasn't been packaged and sold.

Posting a link to someone's writing and then labeling it "unpublishable" made me very uncomfortable. I just don't like to talk about other writers like that. What tipped the scale for me was that the writer in question is shilling for a vanity press. Whether she's entirely aware of that is debatable--which makes the decision to impugn the quality of her writing even harder.

PublishAmerica is not a real publisher. It's an overpriced short-run printer with the morals of a horny leech. The people behind it do everything they can to make themselves look close enough to what a naive writer thinks publishing must look like to reel them in and take their money.

They name their website "AuthorsMarket," a clear parallel to the legitimate "Writers' Market.

They put the word "Publish" in their name--a clear parallel to the legitimate publishing industry.

They claim to "edit." Which brings me back to why I linked to that writer's book: It hasn't been edited. That's not to say the writer wasn't told that it was edited, and there may have been some typos fixed or something, but what appears on that web page is not, in my opinion, professional-level writing that has undergone professional-level editing. There are problems at all levels--from spelling, to sentence construction, to style.

I might use a vanity press at some point, myself. I have some odd bits of writing lying around, and the scores of some art songs and a one-act opera I composed, a really weird radio play I wrote with Blake, and some AOL and Internet posts that I thought were pretty good, and I wouldn't mind putting them all in one big pile and making it available to the eight people who might want to shell out $19 for it over the course of a decade. But please--let's not confuse that with publishing.

Keith and Jan,

Not only have y'all given cogent explanations of PublishAmerica's tactics, but Jan has given the best breakdown of the three types of self-published writers I've seen.

Can a non-published reader comment here, too, or is it just for you hot shot published people. :)

I'm leary of vanity press publications because most of the time there was a reason the book was rejected. At least the few examples I've read have lead me to that conclusion. Does that mean that all self-published works are garbage? Of course not. But it would take a lot for me to find the little gold in the mess.

And there are enough small publishers out there that chances are you can find someone to publish it. May not be a Random House or a big name, but it'll still get your stuff out to be enjoyed. And to a bigger audience then self-publishing would ever allow.

And, Jan, don't get me started on the fake reviews at Amazon. As someone who tries to write serious reviews over there to help authors I like, fake reviews drive me up a wall.

I love getting author's opinions on the publishing industry. Thanks for sharing.

Hi, Toni! Nice to see you outside of Bouchercon.

Mark, we hotshot published types most graciously deign to share the stage with you mere readers. Just leave your sacrifice at the altar on your way out.

The thing that I hate most about speaking against PublishAmerica is that there are people I like who use their services. So it makes me feel as though I'm speaking against those people, when in fact, what I'm speaking against is the disinformation campaign the company practices in order to achieve the bulk deceit necessary for profit.

As Mark said, there are certainly some good writers in with all the bad. But as good as they may be, the fact that they use PublishAmerica does not make it a real publisher! It's a parasitic company that does not adhere to industry standards of quality; does not adhere to industry standards of business; depends upon confusion for its profit; and, bottom line, leeches off the hopeful.

You've articulated it so much better than I could. I wish I'd had this blog entry to refer people to when I was trying to spread the word here: http://www.hatrack.com/ubb/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=019949

Well, I'll jump in with this comment. After my publisher went out of business, I've been looking for venues for the next in the series. I've actually had two small presses interested, and another that said it's "not for them"; it was picked up for 2004, then put off for 2005 and the pub very kindly gave me the option of shopping it around.
The opportunity to publish a series character novella with Worldwide Mystery kept the characters in print; however the next full-length book, which has been finished since 2001 is still on hold. Because it's a mid-series, it's a tough sell.
I have checked into POD and found one that will do pretty much all that I want: publish in all formats (hardback, trade paper, mm); get it in the distribution chain and online; take returns. At this point, there are two negatives - getting reviews (I may be able to get around that) and the collectability of a first print run. I have to weigh this against the volume of e-mails I have been getting asking for the next in my series. I also have to weigh it against the ms I'm finishing for another publisher and a few seriously "sellable" future projects that have been put on hold too long because too much time is spent moving the next series book toward publication.
I do agree with the previous comment however, that I would not consider self-publishing a first time book or the first in a series.

Hi, Jane!

See, I think that makes sense. You're in a position where using one of the POD companies is a reasonable and potentially productive choice.

The thing that angers me about PublishAmerica is that they mislead people for whom they're not a reasonable and productive choice. As far as I can tell, just from seeing how they're talking and who's defending them, that's who they depend on for their profit.

To clarify again (because I really do believe in this distinction): I think some PublishAmerica authors are good, and the decision to use POD probably makes sense in some cases such as yours. Should Jane Rubino self-publish? As far as I can tell, it doesn't look like a bad idea.

A separate issue is whether PublishAmerica is an unethical company that encourages ignorance and spreads disinformation in order to make money off writers who don't know they're not good enough yet. As far as I can tell, the answer to that one is also "yes."

---

Nicholas—thanks for chiming in. Nice blog you've got there.

Thanks! I like yours, too. Which is obviously why I'm here reading it. ;)

What annoys me most (after PA itself) is really not the people who've been duped and refuse to let themselves realise it, but the people--such as some on that thread I linked to--who defend PA's practices on some sort of intellectual basis. I can't fathom it: PA is promising the world, taking people's money and not delivering. What is there to defend? I can only hope these people are in a tiny minority.

Here's my post to last night's Dorothy-L digest:

From: Keith Snyder
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 9:12:24 PM America/New_York
To: Mystery Literature E-conference
Subject: PublishAmerica

Hi, all. My two cents, since Jan linked to my blog...

I think two subjects are getting tangled up into one argument. They are:

1. Whether writers who self-publish are so bad as to be unpublishable by any other means. (Clearly, some aren't. Clearly, many are.)

2. Whether PublishAmerica is a parasitic company that doesn't care whether its customers stink or not. (Of course it is.)

Good writers self-publish using POD technology, some of it provided by PublishAmerica. Some will manage to make the leap to real publishing, so it may have been a good decision for them.

However, that doesn't make PublishAmerica NOT a vanity press, NOT a bunch of sneaky liars, NOT offensive about entire genres of writing, or NOT part of the despicable industry that exists primarily to relieve naive, hopeful people of their money. It is all of the above.

I sincerely and enthusiastically applaud the writers who manage to use it effectively.

I hope the company itself burns to the ground.


Keith

http://www.journalscape.com/keithsnyder

In the interest of fact-checking, I asked a bricks-and-mortar bookseller of my acquaintance, ""What do you think of PublishAmerica?" I left it intentionally vague so as not to color the response. Here is the answer in its entirety, posted on the condition of anonymity:

"In general I find their books expensive for the format, and can't think of any of their authors to date whose publications we've actively sought out. OTOH, their production values are relatively good (as opposed to some of the really ghastly POD stuff) and the few times we have had to order direct (we generally only carry their publications on consignment for events and conferences) the fulfillment has been prompt (which is not the case with many POD publishers, in our experience)."

So basically, they're overpriced and there's no demand, but they ship pretty well.

I agree with what has been said about PublishAmerica but I do not have the faith in the traditional publishing industry that the other contributors seem to have, despite having successfully published myself & facilitated many other writers to publish.

I teach and mentor creative writing students and have seen many talented writers get discouraged by the industry's inability to cope with the deluge of material that comes their way. Some have given up completely. And what about all those writers who feel let down by their publishers/editors, often for very good reason. I have no doubt but that many writers are slipping through the cracks in a business that seems to serve everybody better than it serves its writers.

Hi, Annette,

I just saw your response. Where we may disagree is on the issue of writers needing to have "faith in the traditional publishing industry." I don't believe they do need that. My experience is tht what most of them need, if they want to sell what they write, is a better product.

The industry does cope with the deluge, and quite efficiently: It reviews and rejects 99% of it. That's not because it just can't keep up, so it stamps REJECTED on everything that crosses its desk, but because most of it isn't worth publishing.

Enter PublishAmerica, which makes its money not by trying to find good or sellable stuff, but by printing subpar "practice novels" that no one but the writer's friends and family will buy.

The publishing industry has plenty of shortcomings. No argument from me. But that doesn't make PublishAmerica not a vanity press.

I would like to add one more thing that, in my own experiences, more aspiring writers need: professionalism. I've seen, in writing forums and crittiquing groups (both online and offline) too many writers who seem to think that they can just write whatever they want however they feel like writing it.

This isn't to say all aspiring writers are like this, but as one myself, and someone working towards a position as an editor (have to pay the bills somehow), it's discouraging every time I see one that even suggests that the publishing world should adapt to suit them. Not only will that not happen, but publishing is a business. No amount of faith in your writing will change that.

Publishers expect to be approached with professionalism, both in cover letters, manuscript formats and the appropriateness of the story for the publisher it's being sent to. It also has to be a story that others will want to read (and therefore will want to buy). If an editor (or slush pile reader) doesn't think it measures up to all of those things, it's going to get rejected. It's the way of the business.

As for why I'm mentioning it here (the professionalism thing is kind of my publishing industry pet peeve, really), one of the reasons that I think vanity press publication appeals to some would-be writers is that it doesn't really demand that same professionalism, especially a service that tells you it will edit your work for you and at best does a basic copy edit (aka looking for typos). It doesn't require you to take the lumps that I've found I'm personally taking trying to get published. It also doesn't require you to take the same criticisms or to make changes to something that you (hopefully) put a lot of work into. In other words, it preys on those who want the easy route, or are unwilling to do the things required on the harder road (even though that road is more likely to lead to real success, and real publication that doesn't come with a monetary price tag other than the cost of postage)

I suppose part of my problem is that I'm saddened by how many writers take the vanity press and POD publishing road (and I'm not including writers in Jane's position, because I think they're the exception in the client list of such places). I've never seen figures on how many clients these places have collectively, but I think the number of vanity presses and POD houses speaks volumes as to how many must be availing themselves of their services. I sometimes wonder if these people spent the amount of time improving their manuscripts through HONEST crittiques and advice that they do defending them, resisting changing the book in any fashion, and defending these kind of scam publishing houses, would they have better work to submit to editors? I think they would, if only they'd stop delluding themselves, at least in most cases. I'll admit to having read one or two stories in my time that I really considered unsalvagable (thankfully there have only been one or two).

I'm not trying to suggest that I'm an expert in the industry, or that I know it all, or even that I'm better than anyone else (believe me, I spend a lot of time wondering if I am good enough to get published at all). It's just my two cents on this discussion.

I strongly disagree with the negative comments made about PublishAmerica. Having done a book of short stories with them (Zimmerman's Tefillin), I found them to act professionally and responsibly at every stage of the book's development. Unlike "vanity presses", they never asked me for a dime. They did everything they said they would. My book has been read with approving comments by Joseph Epstein and other well-known writers. Incidentally, I have published several other books with "standard" publishers, both scholarly and artistic. --Ron Pies

Ron, "acting professionally and responsibly" in what context?

As a printer of books, they may very well be on the ball. As a publisher, they're unprofessional and irresponsible. If they'd stop calling themselves publishers, there wouldn't be anything to disagree about.

hmm... so wait a minute! Is it the PublishAmerica is a bad choice if you're considering it in context of price/profit allocation? or is it a bad choice b/c the quality of the books are made cheaply and with no regard to binding? I am so confused. I was just planning on paying the fee and publishing my manuscript into a book with PA but I'm not so sure now. I just wanted to publish my book for the fact of publishing it into pring! hey, do they not accomplish this goal with good quality or what? ahh! Thank you, sry for cluttering the board with me being completely lost even after I've read all of the postings.

Mr. Snyder,

Thank you very much for writing your piece on PublishAmerica. Suffice it to say, I’m a struggling author who has recently dubbed the act of getting published as “playing tag in minefield.” I was dissatisfied with my Literary Agent and recently began looking at other opportunities to break into print. I stumbled upon a recommendation for both PublishAmerica and Bookman Publishing and Marketing, both of which I checked out, both of which I opted to do more homework on before pursuing further. I’m certainly glad I did my homework tonight. Luckily, your comments on PublishAmerica were listed directly below the company’s own site on Google, and I was lead here. Thankfully, your post was handled in a realistic and responsible manner, more a plausible, logical deconstruction, less an angry lambasting.

But, now I’m back to square one, manuscript in hand, and looking for a new Lit Agent. Since you’ve already established that POD, vanity presses, and the new third category – entities similar to Publish America, are not realistic nor viable options for aspiring fiction authors, do you have any of your own personal advice? Mrs. Burke’s link to the beware segment of swfa.org was highly instructional, but after dealing with mines in real life, I’d like to have as much knowledge at my disposal for the metaphorical mines in the literary world.

P. Bradley Robb

Publishamerica does not ask their authors for one cent. Authors do not pay Publishamerica, period. A Vanity Press once contacted me wanting $13,000.00. This is quite different from Publishamerica. Publishamerica edits manuscripts and offers literary support. I have also known authors whose work was rejected by Publishamerica so it is false that the agency accepts all submissions.

I hope you'll forgive me for not responding in a timely manner. Journalscape doesn't notify me when new comments are posted.

The old model "vanity press" was built around the fact that the author pays for printing. Print-on-demand technology has allowed companies to spring up which don't necessarily charge the author up front, but which make the same misleading claims and take advantage of the same vulnerable people as the traditional vanity press. It's a difference that makes no difference: PublishAmerica exists to make money from books that aren't good enough to get published in the real marketplace. Period.

Do some good authors publish good books there? Sure, no argument from me. But from all the evidence I've ever seen, good writing is not PublishAmerica's core business. Bad writing is.

Go whatever route you want to go. Use PublishAmerica. Hire pygmies. Rent billboards. It makes no difference to me. Have fun. Call yourself published.

But come to my blog and claim they're a real publisher, and you'll get to hear why you're wrong.

P. Bradley--I wish I had better advice than "Keep writing, keep getting better, and keep trying to sell it," but that's really all I can come up with.

aha lol ty. well, hey... I didn't have to use a vanity publisher afterall! yay for this message board or I might have spent unnecessarily!! ahh! well, maybe I'll use it later for just the fact of using it. Dunno. Well, anyways, thank you keith and the rest for ur insight on this matter! ahh! nice:~)

Hi there, just a couple quick notes on PA. I am a writer who got a little (sigh) impatient. I decided to go with PA, even after everything I heard, or had been told, just to get my book in print. I consider myself a good writer, and I hope you all will think so too, just...impatient. The good news is, I've been getting a lot of great press, being Canadian, most media outlets and bookstores haven't heard of PA, and I simply describe it to them as "one of the smaller companies" To try and make it sound better. Also, I'm not having too much of a problem getting it into bookstores. I sent a synopsis in for my second and (Big surprise here) It was accepted (Everyone gasp in amazement lol) Now, It's time to vent.
PA is like a cult, I swear. I don't know how many times I've been booted from their messageboards for saying something even the slightest bit derogitory towards them, and when I E-mail them for some kind of explanation, I never hear back. I've E-mailed them so many times for different reasons only to get no response. Two or three months ago, I would have looked at this site and said "Another jealous writer who can't get published" Now, I compleltely agree with everything you have said. PA claims to NOT be a POD, but what do they do? They print to order....They PRINT ON DEMAND!!! They are also a vanity publisher, I've read alot of crap, more crap than good, although there are alot of very talented writers in the group and I wish them the best of luck.
PA are like children, they run away if anything negative is said, and defend themselves with statements that make NO sense, they have a huge double standard, they contradict themselves left and right, and they have NO respect for their authors, they think WE should be THANKING THEM for publishing us, and be forever grateful. I wish that I had've waited, been a little more patient. But alas, I have two books with them, they did do a good job with the cover and overall binding, but I will never think of signing with them again, and I hope to move on to bigger and better things!
Check out my website if you'd like, love yours and thank you!
Amber Plowman
http://www.thefoxrocks.tk

Hi, I just read a lot of the posts on here and after spending the last few days totally elated, I'm now a bit down in the dumps.

As I understood it, self-publishing, or 'vanity' publishing requested that the author pay out to have his/her book in print? I've recently signed to PublishBritannica, owned by PublishAmerica, and the contract reads very fairly. I have no outlay, and my book will be available in all major bookstores in the UK. At least, that's what I've been told.

Is this wrong?

John

I just have to say that I have had a book published by PublishAmerica and have been very satisfied. I did not pay a penny for the publishing, formatting, Isbn, cover design,editing(although minimal),and placement in Internet markets. They were cooperative throughout and made all corrections and modifications I requested. It is wonderful that technology allows for many, many more writers to be published. You can critcize PA, but they have allowed many marginal and great writers to be published...and I think that is wonderful! They have kept every promise/agreement made with me. Royalty checks are on time...and accurate. I do not understand statements that they steal your money, rip you off.....all I have done is MADE money as a result of publishing with them. Will I become a wealthy man, probably not; but I have the satisfaction of having my work produced in an attractive and professional way.

Well, there's the satisfaction of having your work produced in an attractive and professional way, and then there's getting published.

Whether PublishAmerica is right for you depends on which of those things you think you're getting.

I too have considered going with PA, which is why I am researching them on the web. While Keith makes some good points he seems to make some dubious ones as well.

First, how can PA 'rip you off' when they charge NOTHING! Even if they were to let you down completely you are not 'ripped off.'

Secondly, claiming that 'true' publishing houses save us from bad books by weeding out drek. Please, they publish drek too, if they can sell it. Paris Hilton had a best seller and her book is crap. Look at the NY Times bestseller list for such great works as "How to make love like a porn star" and others like it.

The fact is 'true' publishing companies want to make money too, and will compromise quality to get it.

PA is not as bad as Keith claims, nor are 'true' publishing companies as wonderful. Take both of his points of view with a grain of salt.

Pete, I've never used the phrase "rip you off."

I've never claimed that true publishing houses save us from bad books by weeding out drek.

I've never claimed real publishers are wonderful.

PA is exactly what I've claimed. You apparently can't understand what I've claimed.

Since this is my blog, I get to call you a name now.

You are, for now and all time, Pete of the Below-Average Reading Comprehension.

Those of you with Publishers Weekly access (and there's a free, no-credit-card 30-day trial available if you don't), here's a new article on PA's deceptive practices:

http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA481863&display=%25display%25

Keith,
Let us review. True, you never said the phrase "rip you off", I paraphrased. Here is what you DID say

"It's a parasitic company that does not adhere to industry standards of quality; does not adhere to industry standards of business; depends upon confusion for its profit; and, bottom line, leeches off the hopeful."

Calling them "parasitic" and saying PA "leeches off the hopeful" is just as bad, and in the same vein as 'rip you off'. According to you they must be leeching something from somewhere.

You also said "That's not because it just can't keep up, so it stamps REJECTED on everything that crosses its desk, but because most of it isn't worth publishing."
Saying material is not "worth publishing" is close to calling it drek. Again, I paraphrased.

"The industry does cope with the deluge, and quite efficiently:"

Sounds like you are calling real publishers a savior there.

Finally, calling someone with a different opinion a name is the lowest form of combat in a debate. I really got to you, it seems. That shows your true character. Look up the term "ad hominem" sometime.

Now that I know your tactics I will no longer engage you in intelligent debate since you are unable to do so.

I will come back to read your response to this, I can always use a good laugh.

I hope those who read your comments are able to see them for what they are, and able to tell that you have no intention whatsoever of "debate."

If not, they're too stupid to be writers anyway.

End of stupid non-debate with Pete, who's welcome to post factual data or to discuss like a grownup. He's also welcome to be a juvenile ego-monger everywhere else in the universe, but bring any more adolescent flames to my blog and I'll delete them. Maybe. Haven't decided for sure yet.

More insults -sigh-

You started the juvenille name calling, not me.

You refuse to even rebut my points. All I claim is that PA will not "leech" authors as they ask for ZERO money, and that is factual data.

Now threats of deletion? It is you that needs to "grow up"

What does everybody think? I think he's got no interest in anything resembling the "debate" he keeps talking about.

Been wrong before, though. Should I delete it, or leave it up?

Oh, what the hell, leave it up.

Pete, there are far too many articles on precisely how PA does business. It sounds to me that you've bought into their hype.

To give you a head start, take a look at their business model. It's just not designed to make money selling large quantities of books. They make their money off the author, and the author's friends and family.

Do some research and come on back.

Out of curiosity, I went back and checked my own entry, and sure enough -- I had a recent comment added as well from a PA author. Fortunately, she seemed to have a pretty good idea of what she was getting into: had a lawyer renegotiate royalties in the contract and said she didn't mind not being sold/known outside her home town, since she apparently wasn't trying to make a career of it.

*shrug*

I just went back to the Publishers Weekly article and discovered they've run a followup.

http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA481704.html

In this one, the PublishAmerica spokesperson refuses to name PublishAmerica's CEO and states that PublishAmerica does not edit for content.

Which is what the rest of us refer to, more simply, as "editing."

Let me clarify my post. I have read hundreds of msgs over the past 3 days about PA. Lots of them are negative, yet MANY are glowing! Some people are happy with what PA gave them, an opportunity to get published for free. Is PA for me? No. I just think that the extreme language that Keith uses to impune PA is over the top and he never mentions the people that are happy with their experience with PA, even though some have posted in this thread.

Pete, if that was what you were after, you wouldn't have "paraphrased" my words to such an extent that they bore almost no resemblance to what I said.

You came here to cause trouble. You caused it. Now either stay and contribute for real or leave.

I "paraphrased" my words as I did because I was upset at how strong your criticisms were, using words like "parasite", "leeches", etc. Your words border on slander and you have no personal experience with PA. You only know what you read.
You came on strong and so did I. I think I captured the sentiment of your posts well, that is how I read them. I caused no trouble, I spoke my mind. What did I do, crash and burn your blog? It takes 2 to fight and you went off on me.

You want a rep of deleting posts? Go ahead. Want a rep of banning users? Be my guest.

I clarified my point, now you want to be the tough guy

Hey, everybody's got an off day once in a while. Usually I let people simply demonstrate who they are. Today I got sucked in a little.

You've demonstrated who you are. I've demonstrated who I am. We done?

You bet;) I was going to post something similar if you didn't

Besides, I really am not interested in defending PA, I have not even used them, I just wanted to be fair to something I do not have experience with.

Good luck to those that hate PA and those that love it!

Good, then let's talk for real.

As I said somewhere in that big pile of words from the year since I wrote the initial post, I might even use a vanity press myself at some point. I've got a bunch of stuff lying around that I wouldn't mind seeing organized, bound, and available for purchase. It's not as though my short screenplays and electronic art songs are going to get snapped up by Bantam; might as well do something with them.

A service that would let me do this easily is valuable. What it isn't, is a publisher. If it calls itself one, it lies.

Publishers edit. PublishAmerica doesn't.

Publishers promote. (Yeah, I know, lots of authors complain that their publishers do nothing for them. Most of those authors aren't aware that something actually is being done--it's just not as much as the author would prefer.) Far as I know, PublishAmerica promotes itself, not each of the authors it contracts with.

Publishers attempt to sell to the public. PublishAmerica attempts to sell to your family.

And so on. It's all in the previous comments and the initial post.

I've talked to booksellers, who have universally given PublishAmerica a big thumbs-down. I've talked to far, far too many authors (at mystery events, mostly) who deeply regret their involvement with PublishAmerica. I've visited the PublishAmerica "front" website and seen them systematically delete any post that questions them.

So not only is it not a publisher, but it's not (in my estimation) ethical.

As I've said: You want your manuscript typeset and bound, they can do that. You want to be published--that's not the business they're in.

Congratulations to the people who are happy with it. Apparently they just wanted a bound, typeset manuscript. Good for them.

Woe to the people who thought (due to PublishAmerica's marketing) that they were getting published.

OK, for REAL.

I wrote a book, 100,000 words worth. If I cannot get a traditional publisher or agent to pick it up, what vanity press do people suggest?

I have heard of Infinity, Virtual Bookworm, The Writer's Collective, and IUniverse. Any of them good? Any chance of getting a best seller with them?

For John, 1:37 pm, Nov 16, 2004 EST:

Please note that when PublishBritannica says that your book will be "available" in all major bookstores in the UK, that that's a far cry from being "shelved" in all major bookstores. "Available" means that if someone walks up to the special-orders desk and requests a copy of your book, that the bookstore will order it.

For Robert Victor Schweitzer, 11:56 am, Nov 24, 2004 EST

You say, "I did not pay a penny for the publishing, formatting, Isbn, cover design,editing(although minimal),and placement in Internet markets."

Tell me: Did you buy any copies of your own book? What was the dollar cost? Did you do any promotion or marketing for your book? What was the dollar cost, including your time?

For Ron Pies, 9:49 pm, aug 24, 2004 EDT

You say, "Unlike 'vanity presses', they never asked me for a dime."

But did you, in fact, send them any money? The basis of the PublishAmerica business model is that they know they don't have to ask authors to buy their own books -- authors love their books and will buy them without being asked if there's no other way to see them distributed. PublishAmerica takes a chance on its authors in the same way and to the same extent that Caesar's Palace takes a chance on its slot machines.

For Pete 1:10 am, Dec 8, 2004 EST

You ask: "First, how can PA 'rip you off' when they charge NOTHING! Even if they were to let you down completely you are not 'ripped off.'"

They're betting that you'll buy copies of your own book. Perhaps hundreds of copies. If you don't buy any, then no, you won't be "ripped off." Enough people do buy their own books by the case that PublishAmerica makes a profit. (Oh, and did you count the $30 that you have to pay out of pocket for the copyright toward "nothing"?)


For Pete, 1:06 am, Dec 9, 2004 EST:

You ask: "If I cannot get a traditional publisher or agent to pick it up, what vanity press do people suggest?"

I don't suggest any vanity press at all. The chances of getting a best seller, or any kind of sales beyond your family and friends, are minimal. I'd suggest that you write a new book and submit that to legitimate agents and publishers.

Pete, does that mean you've submitted already to publishers? (I'm not going to say "traditional publisher" because that implies that PublishAmerica is a "nontraditional publisher" when, in fact, they are simply a printer.)

The traditional thing to do when your book doesn't sell is to think about why and then write another one. So that's my suggestion.

If the next book sells, it's always possible that this book sells along with it. You've heard stories about the books so-and-so had lying around in the sock drawer, and finally one of them sells and they all do?

That can't happen easily if the rights are tied up with PublishAmerica or any other vanity press. If you were shortsighted enough to sell your rights for nothing, now the publisher has to deal with a vanity press, and it may not be worth it. I've personally seen a large publisher decide it's not worth it to deal with a small legit press (to my detriment), so this is stuff that really does happen.

PublishAmerica has been canny in reframing what should be a straightforward issue as "traditionalists vs. those who deserve to be published." In fact, it is "those who know better trying to help those who are about to fall for a scam" (and getting insulted for our efforts).

That's it, time to follow so-and-so's advice and move my "unpublished" to the sock drawer.

Hi, Keith. Excellent essay.

Pete, if all you want is to get your book printed and bound, go to a printer. If you want anything else -- readers, for instance, or bookstore distribution -- PublishAmerica won't do you a bit of good.

You say that PA's operation means more books will get published. True. In this week alone they published 112 titles. Is publishing more books an end in itself? Even if no one reads them? Or is the actual point there that PA will publish your book, and no one else will?

PublishAmerica will not make you happy. If you look at their own message boards, you'll see a lot of satisfied authors -- almost all of whom are waiting for their books to be published, or have just had them come out. They're in love with the idea that their book is going to be published. When they see the reality, they stop being happy. Most of them either drop out and become depressed, or they talk about their difficulties and so get banned from the PA boards.

(Politely mentioning there that you can't get your local bookstore to shelve one or two copies of your book, once they find out who published it, is enough to get your message deleted from the board.)

By the way, I found it amusing when you spluttered about Keith getting a rep for deleting posts and banning users. First, you really are acting like a jerk. Sorry about that, but you are. Second, it's funny to have you making that protest in the midst of defending PublishAmerica, since I don't know of a major online venue that'll delete posts and ban users faster or more arbitrarily than the PA boards. They'll ban authors who've been the heart and soul of PA's online community, and not give it a second thought. Third, I have a reputation for running good, civil, substantial conversations in the comment sections of my weblog, and I'd have zapped you long before now. If that's what Keith wants to do, he needn't worry about it damaging his fair name.

In closing: Pray consider the possibility that the model, "These people will publish my book, even if it isn't good enough for normal publication," might have some serious flaws.

"Secondly, claiming that 'true' publishing houses save us from bad books by weeding out drek. Please, they publish drek too, if they can sell it. Paris Hilton had a best seller and her book is crap. Look at the NY Times bestseller list for such great works as "How to make love like a porn star" and others like it."

Pete,
Publishers will print drek that has a market. There's no accounting for taste, but it's the public that decides what will sell and what won't. Publishers print whatever they feel will sell to the *public*.

Printers will print drek regardless if it has a market. Their market is the person printing the book and only the person printing the book. Whether or not it goes beyond that the printer doesn't care.

Every writer looks forward to the day when their manuscript has finally been published by a reputable publishing house and becomes a book. PublishAmerica (www.publishamerica.com) located in Frederick, Maryland, is a company that purports to make that dream come true but in reality shatters it.
Every author enters into a publishing contract with the reasonable expectation that if they make diligent efforts in marketing and promotion of their books, their book will be stocked by bookstores. Because PublishAmerica’s business practices do not conform to long established publishing industry standards, bookstores will not stock, and in many cases cannot even order PublishAmerica books.

PublishAmerica (PA) is deceptive, tantamount to fraudulent. Writers sign with them believing that they have been accepted by a traditional publishing house, their book will be edited, they will gain a publishing credit and will be paid royalties.
And just as important, their book will have the opportunity to be stocked in bookstores. As soon as their book is ‘published’ They are in for a crushing disappointment, one not at all related to the quality of their writing.
*************************************
If writers knew what PA really was, and how they really operate, no one who is serious about their writing career would ever sign a contract with them.

A lot of PA authors who know they have been wronged are not even aware that they can demand to have their contracts terminated and get the rights back to their books. Hopefully, once they learn that many other authors have gotten the rights to their books, they won't be afraid to pursue this as well.

****************************************************


In reality PublishAmerica is a vanity/subsidy publisher that charges their authors on the back end. To achieve any level of book sales authors must buy their own books from PublishAmerica at inflated prices for resale. PublishAmerica has designed their business model so that is virtually the only way the books will be sold.

1) PublishAmerica induces writers to sign with them by claiming to be a “traditional publisher.” They also claim "Our business model is nearly identical to that of most major publishers.” It is not. The truth is, the PA business model is nearlyidentical to that of most vanity publishers.

2) PA states that they are selective and reject 80% of the submitted manuscripts and provide line by line editing. They don’t. They have accepted and offered a contract on a manuscript that after about the first 40 pages, repeats the same 10 pages over and over. Thee are numerous examples of PA authors manuscripts coming back from 'editing' identical to that submitted, or with additional errors.

3) PA implies that their books are in numerous bookstores across the country. PA titles are not stocked in bookstores. I havenot found one bookstore that stocks PublishAmerica titles. What PA means when they say available in bookstores is that a title may be ordered through the bookstore.

4) PublishAmerica says they pay royalties but refuses to answer questions about those royalties. Some authors don’t receive statements at all. I am one of their authors who has not received a statement for this last period. And I know there are sales PA refuses to answer correspondence about this matter or even acknowledge receiving any contact about the lack of royalty payment.

5) PA claims to have 10,000 happy authors. And yet 150 PublishAmerica authors have brought a petition regarding PublishAmerica to the legal authorities in Maryland. There are literally thousands of complaints, warnings and discussion posts about PA posted on authors discussion boards on the Internet.

6) PublishAmerica touts themselves as the ‘fastest growing publisher in America’, but the average number of copies sold per title is only about 100.

7) PublishAmerica implies that they actively market their titles when in fact their market efforts are dedicated to promoting themselves to attract new authors rather than to help existing authors sell their books.

8) PublishAmerica claims not to be a publish on demand house, but that is the business model they use.
***********************************

Dee Power

Thanks, all of you, for adding your voices.

Bottom line, I think, is that writers need to develop a nose for BS. The odor surrounds PublishAmerica. That should be enough.

To Teresa Nielsen Hayden.

You need to re-read the thread. First Kieth decided to call me a name, and then he threated to delete my posts, and you say I acted like a jerk when that upset me?

You would have zapped me from your board? For what? Did I insult anyone? Swear, slander, flame, go off topic? I stated an OPINION.

If you zap people for posting differing opinions, you bloggers need thicker skin.

In closing you said ""These people will publish my book, even if it isn't good enough for normal publication," might have some serious flaws." Sure, and I can trust an industry that rejected the Harry Potter series 38 times! Many EXCELLENT books do not get published because short sighted agents/publishers did not recognize talent.

Think that over too, please

To James,

Exactly my point. Just because a book gets published by a legit publisher doesn't make it "good", nor if a book is rejected by tons of publishers make it "bad" It just might not be commercial enough to take a chance on.

That is a shame, since that means that true "bad" books will get published, and some honestly "good" books might not.

To Keith,

I have sent my query letter to a few agents, a couple requested a full propsal and are still looking it over.

Without giving out details, my book is a memoir of a rather unique aspect of military life. Several agents returned my query letter (without reading 1 word of my book) saying "memoirs are tough to sell"

I have no intention of using PA now that I researched it. I want to sell my book widly, not just locally. I was hoping perhaps using a better "vanity press" (one that does not tie up rights, many do not) might get me in via the back door, by using self promotion, then perhaps getting picked up later. Sure that is tough, but getting published in the first place is tough too.

BTW one small publisher that almost bought my book (this one liked the book, but said it was tough to promote) told me that I would indeed need to self promote even with them publishing me.

Is my book any good? I do not know. But I do know that being published or not published will not answer that question.

Actually, Pete, the FIRST thing that happened was you came into MY place and lied about what I'd said.

From here out, I will delete ANY post by ANYONE that isn't about PublishAmerica, but is (rather) about the outrageous slings suffered by the martyr in question.

That includes posts about how unfair I am.

Daddy has spoken.

"Exactly my point. Just because a book gets published by a legit publisher doesn't make it "good", nor if a book is rejected by tons of publishers make it "bad" It just might not be commercial enough to take a chance on."

Pete, you've read to much into what I posted.

A publisher will print books that they can sell to the public at large. Sometimes they guess wrong, but the author still makes some money.

PublishAmerica will print books they can sell to the author regardless of its marketability. Sometimes they guess wrong, either way the author makes no money.

Pete, regarding "coming in the back door," why would you be trying to do that when there's a front door with an AUTHORS' ENTRANCE plaque on it?

Serious question.

Keith, excellent blog. I was pointed to it by your sister-in-law, who is an online friend of mine. At the Piker Press (url attached), we've had some discussions in the forums about vanity/POD presses. We don't all agree on everything, but we do realize what vanity publishing is. However, in this instance, I'm speaking from my own experience as a reader of a number of self-published books, a former bookseller, a published author, and an editor who also has a number of friends and acquaintances in the traditional publishing fields. And I say you are spot on.

Traditional publishers are not in the business of turning down saleable (hint-- saleable! Learn what that is, folks, it's part of the job) manuscripts. Quite the contrary, they actively seek out work from a variety of sources. Rejections most often have to do with either a)the complete inability of the author to write an intelligible story or a compelling work of nonfiction, b)the house's list is filled and they aren't accepting any submissions currently or c) automatic rejection because the author did not research the publisher's submission guidelines and follow them to the letter.

I'll tell you what my own little acid test of PublishAmerica is. They do not have an ad in Writer's Digest. WD has a reasonably liberal advertising policy, but they do turn down ads from companies with questionable practices. Why would PublishAmerica not place even a small classified ad in the world's most-read writer's resource, hmm??? I try not to miss an issue, even though I'm not currently seeking a publisher. They also do not have a listing in Writer's Market 2005, the freelance writer's bible. The WD website search engine also comes up with zero results for a search on "PublishAmerica". If this is an oversight on PA's part, it's a gigantic, huge, gaping, Big Gulp(tm)-sized one for a company which purports to be a professional "publisher". 'nuff said?

Keith,
The door may say AUTHOR'S ENTRANCE but unless you are already a published author, or a celebrity, or someone with his/her 15 mins of fame (such as the hiker that cut off his arm), getting through that door is VERY difficult!

Pete, you're lecturing someone who did it. No agent, no inside contacts, no celebrity. Nada. Just me and a manuscript.

Write as well as you can. Learn as much as you can. Take your best shots. Repeat if necessary. PublishAmerica isn't a victory; it's an admission of defeat.

There are exceptions. Jane Rubino's smart and informed, and she used them for a very specific reason that made sense to her as an already-published author.

You're not in her position. You're preparing to concede the war after losing your first battle. And you're arguing with the people who are trying to talk you out of it.

To Pete:

Difficult, yes, but not impossible.

I hear what you're saying. I've been studying writing all my life, been working on novel for close to nine years, learned a lot about writing (and applied it), improved my writing, met and talked to published writers, and so much more.

You would think all that (once I finish my novel) might at least get me to the door, where they might say, "You're not quite ready yet, come back in a month."

It irks me to no end that Paris Hilton not only got in the door, but they laid a red carpet for her to walk on, gave her book publicity (like, she needed more), and worse -- she didn't have to write the book. It's rumored she didn't even read it.

But sadly, that's the way of the world. Notoriety sells big, the writing doesn't have to be good. Good writing without notoriety can sell big, too, but the proving ground is rough. All I can offer to you is this: If we have to work that hard for it, it will be worth it when it happens. And it will be real.

Hi, Tedi,

Thanks for dropping by and adding your voice. The more knowledgeable people who speak up, the better.

All the arts have historically attracted opportunistic, unethical people who lie to the artists and take their money.

So I guess in that sense, PublishAmerica is perfectly traditional.

John, that is exactly how I feel.

Keith, I am not lecturing anyone. You make it sound as if I am the only person to say getting publishing is tough, well it is tough.

I have some nibbles for my book, maybe I can get lucky.

If not I thought having a book in print (not necessarily with PA), i.e. product in hand, could get me on local talk shows, radio, newspapers etc. I have seen that work too.

Either way it is tough.

Yes, it is tough--but the celebrity/already published thing is absolutely irrelevant. Celebrities and previously published authors have very little effect on whether you will get published--they're not really competing in your niche.

I mean, I suppose you could make the case that a publishing house has a finite budget, so the more they spend on Paris Hilton, the less they have for breaking out new talent like you. The problem with that reasoning is that it fails to take one thing into account:

If it wasn't Paris Hilton, it would be some other celebrity, not Pete with the military memoir.

There's a market niche for celebrity books. You think they're idiotic, I think they're idiotic, but they're not the business you're trying to crack. You might as well get annoyed that Pierce Brosnan endorses wristwatches for all the effect it has on Pete's writing career.

You're trying to break into writing. You're not competing with celebrities.

Eye on the goal, not the distractions.

The point is the more money/time/energy that is spent on known commodities (celebs, brand name authors, scandal tomes) the harder it is for first time authors to break in. In that sense I am competing with anyone and everyone that is trying to get published.

I do not begrudge losing out to a better book, but it hurts losing out to bad ones.

I don't think so, no.

In my view celebs and brand name authors don't make it any harder for newbies to break in, not really. You're seeing it as one big business: PUBLISHING.

Try looking at it instead as several different industries that share things such as distribution routes, graphic designers, and various other support departments. Those separate industries include:

CELEBRITY BOOKS
TEXTBOOKS
NONFICTION
ROMANCE (yes, it's handled differently)
MYSTERY
SCIENCE FICTION

Markets are defined by buyers. People who go into Barnes and Noble to buy Paris' book aren't your audience. People who go in to buy your book aren't her audience.

These are (repeating for emphasis) separate industries.

Same thing with John Grisham. He's got no effect on your chances of getting published. You're not in competition with him.

You're not in competition with romance novels or science fiction.

You're in competition with the other first-time authors--and what you're competing for isn't market share. It's an agent's attention.

Right?

Agents like celeb books, etc., because agents get a cut of the sale. However, agents also really love great new writers. They love finding them, love nurturing their careers, love being the one who found them.

That's your target. Not Paris Hilton's readership. She has nothing to do with you.

To Keith:

What gets to me is that celeb books don't need any publicity, and yet they get it. I realize it's a business decision -- publishers put the dollars behind the book that's going to bring back in more dollars. It's not fair, I resent it, but it's the way it goes. But you've helped me realize that all of that doesn't affect my chances, just they like they didn't affect (e.g.) Michael Connelly's chances when he wrote his first book.

You are right, it's two different worlds.

I'm trying to break into the mystery world, as you know. I don't see myself as competing with Michael Connelly, Robert Crais, or Sue Grafton. I am trying to get to where they are. I don't expect, nor would I want, to get there on anything else other than my talent for writing and storytelling, and the help of a good agent, a good editor, and publisher. As today's masters once did.

And from what has been said here, PA offers none of that.

To Pete:

If that's how you feel, then please take what I said one step further and consider what Keith added (that I did not consider) as well. Paris Hilton isn't selling a book, she isn't selling writing, she is selling her name. I sure wouldn't want to be published that way, and I don't think you would either. Paris is a fad. You are a writer.

All the good writing books tell us that finishing the novel only is the first step to publication. We need to get our books into our readers's hands, and the ones who help us do that are the agents. They know the markets, the publishers, the booksellers. They put your book on the quickest path from manuscript, to bookshelf, to readers' hands.

It's going to be hard work, but I repeat: If we have to work hard for it, it will be worth it when it happens. And it will be real.

Keep writing, keep trying, never give up. After all we have said here, you must agree, Pete, that using PA would be giving up.

Keith's right. Paris Hilton's book (the one she had to have help reading) has no effect on your attempts to sell a military memoir. She's not taking anything away from you.

Do you buy celebrity books? No? Neither do I. But they do get published, because mysterious customers who are nothing like me or my friends or anyone else I know are inexplicably willing to buy them. I accept that this is so, same way I accept that many people (none of whom I know) have bought copies of The Celestine Prophecy. It's a mystery, but it doesn't really impinge on my world.

By the bye, celebrity books are a much smaller part of the industry than you imagine. It just happens that you hear a lot about them because the media love reporting stories in which a celebrity's name occurs.

I'm not going to argue about the quality of writing that gets published, except to say that it's higher by a mile or two than the average quality of the books that get rejected. While it's true that some good books also get rejected, that's not the way to bet.

Here's the real question about writing quality: Do you buy and read books where the writing isn't up to snuff? Do you unhesitatingly recommend them to your friends, and do they then read them? You know the answer: not unless there's something so compelling about the content that you're willing to overlook the writing.

Stop thinking like an author for a minute, and think like a reader instead. You know what it's like to walk into the store and be faced with a double-sided wire rack that has hundreds of slots per side. That moment's all about you and what this book (or that book, or the other book) can do for you.

That's what you're up against: not Paris Hilton, not the evil publishing industry, none of that stuff. You're up against the reader's lightly wandering attention as he or she scans the rack and decides whether or not to buy a book. If you can catch and hold that attention, you're in like Flynn. If not, not.

This month, the company I work for is publishing Bad Magic by Stephan Zielinski, a book I fished out of the slushpile. The author wasn't a celebrity. He had no inside track. He wasn't altogether sure what he was doing. But he'd written a strange, scary, charming, and highly original book that made me want to go on reading it.

Can you do that to your readers? That's the real trick.

Here's a rule of thumb I teach my writing students: "There is no substitute for writing a book that people want to buy and read. If you can do that, you will get published. If you can't, no half-baked vanity publishing or self-publishing or e-publishing or POD publishing scheme is going to do you a bit of good."

At the same time -- and this may surprise you -- I entirely approve of people self-publishing their memoirs. Maybe they'll sell a bunch of copies. Maybe they won't. But their unique experiences and viewpoint will be there in a book, which for good reason is our species' favorite data storage device. It's durable. It's accessible. It's easy to store, and not terribly hard to reproduce. And I think it's just great that those books exist.

To Keith: Congratulations on the impending event. Better you than me, but oh, how exciting!

To Pete: I'll chime in here with Teresa and say that published memoirs, self or otherwise are an important facet of preserving our history, much as oral traditions were in eras past. That said, I'd also suggest, since you say you've gotten a few "nibbles", well, dang, dude, nibbles are great! Go shop for an agent! Having a house express any kind of interest in your work is a legitimate excuse to procure an agent. And no, it won't put the publisher off at all. It might even inspire confidence.

Pete --

Here's a suggestion for an entirely different route: have you considered attempting to sell excerpts of your memoir to anthologies or magazines? This would allow you to get publishing credit(s) under your belt without the taint of self-publishing (because, regardless of discussions of lesser or greater "rip-offs," all vanity press still does carry the taint of "not good enough to be published.")

Of course, for all that you say that you want a wide readership, before I condemn all uses of VP, it does depend on whether this book is truly your final and primary product. Books (and I realize this may be heresy) can also be a means to an end. Do you have a desire to give lectures on the subject? Teach a course at local community colleges? It may be that -- as long as you hold onto the rights -- you could start making money in other arenas based on a VP book.

But for developing a writing career or even just promoting this book, I'd side with those who say that self-publishing, alas, rarely if ever helps gain a traditional publishing contract. Just keep refining your writing, seeking feedback from those whose opinions you value, and keep sending it out until you find the right publisher.

Oh, and buy stock in ramen.
;)

The purpose for the ads that readers see -- the newspaper, TV, and radio ads -- is to tell readers "You know that book you were planning to buy the minute it came out? It's out!"

Whether that be the latest celebrity book, or a hot-topic book, or the latest big-name-author book, doesn't matter. That's the purpose of the ad.

Throwing the same money, the same time, the same ads, at a first novel by someone that no one ever heard of, wouldn't produce enough sales to pay for the advertising campaign. Why not? Because there aren't a whole lot of people planning to buy that book the minute it comes out.

Take a minute to walk through a bookstore. See all those books on the shelf? How many of them have had print, TV, or radio ads? Not many, right? Think about the last dozen books you've bought. How many of them had print, TV, or radio ads? Not many of them, either, right? How about author tours? Nope?

Okay, so you see most books aren't getting major media ads, most authors aren't getting tours, but their books are shelved, and are selling, and you're buying them anyway.

So the ads go to authors who don't need advertising? Yeah, that's pretty much it. The idea is to get the people who aren't going to go into a bookstore except when they're looking for the latest King or Grisham or Clancy to actually come into the bookstore. Once inside the doors they'll walk past shelves with everyone else's books on 'em, and maybe they'll pick up one with an interesting cover as they go by.

It isn't a bad thing to get people into the habit of buying books, you know.

Until you reach the point where, when someone mentions your name, the usual reaction isn't "who?", book launches and book signings and book tours are a waste of time and money. Do 'em if you think they're fun. They won't make a major percent difference in the number of books you sell.

Looks like this round is over.

If you post here, please drop me a line and let me know. Journalscape doesn't notify me of new comments, so I won't know you've said anything unless you bring it to my attention.

Thanks to all for adding their voices.

To Tedi Trindle and Rachel,
I just wanted to thank you both for the encouragement and the suggestions. Those are very good ideas that I never thought of. I am a real neophyte to all of this.

To Teresa Nielsen Hayden,
Good points, I enjoyed your latest comments.

No need for me to alert Keith about this post, I just wanted to thank you three for your comments!

Pete, you're more than welcome. I wish you the best of luck. If you need further encouragement/suggestions, I'd like to encourage you to visit the website on my post. That's exactly the kind of thing we do there, help each other with our writing. I do hope you get published. The little you've told us about the book sounds intriguing. See? Who said editors were all heartless and unhelpful? ;)

"Keith's right. Paris Hilton's book (the one she had to have help reading) has no effect on your attempts to sell a military memoir. She's not taking anything away from you."

Actually, as any bookseller will tell you, Paris Hilton's book will *help* sales of other books. How?
Books that sell well put cash into the bookstores pocket. That enables them to stock other books that might not sell well (even with a returnable factor, the very fact that a book takes up space on a shelf costs money the business isn't going to make back).

So while Madonna's books may not be the best literature, the fact that they'll sell means your book may have extra space to sit.

Plus, people who come into the store to buy Madonna's book or Paris Hilton's book may pick up another book as long as they're there ... and the book they pick up may be mine.

Perhaps they will, James. And this is the hopeful thought that keeps me sane when I see a celeb book staring back at me when I walk into a Barnes and Noble.

The only thing I take exception with is that I would have to walk past all the celeb books, back to a shelf in the back with all the other mystery books, in order to find your book. But someone who goes in just to buy the Madonna book might just pick it up and go.

That's why I support mystery bookstores.

Why can't the chains be like supermarkets, who put milk in the back of the store so that when you run in for milk, you are forced to walk past all the other food and non-food items?

You are so wrong about PublishAmerica. Why all the bil? Just check the facts. PA are definitely NOT a vanity or subsidy publisher. They are honest publishers attracting the venom of some people for reasons only known to themselves.
I have had a book published by PA and I know from first hand experience that all the hurtful comments hurled their way are totally untrue. Be at peace and you will be so much happier. PA offer new authors only one thing A CHANCE. I am sorry that whatever you have experienced in you literary life makes you feel that revenge on PA is the only way to deal with it. Think again and that goes to all the other uninformed comments that are being made when in actual fact the truth speaks loudly for itself. See PA's website and testimonials etc. I wish you well.

I'm a new author trying to learn about why PublishAmerica is under constant attack. My first book is being published by them. All the other publisher that wanted my book also wanted my money!

Vera, if you wished me well, you wouldn't suggest that the only reason I hold the opinion I do is that something's gone wrong in my career and therefore I want to attack PublishAmerica.

Which is--and I'm tired and tactless, I admit it--stupid.

Phyllis, I think the reason PublishAmerica draws so much fire becomes very clear if you read up on them. I've already said it, others have already said it, and I really don't know what else to say. If you want a bound book, they're fine (or, anyway, fine-ish). If you want to be what most people in the publishing business consider "published," that's not the business they're in.

As long as you're clear on that, and you make your choice with your eyes open, there's no problem.

Very interesting debate / Great Blog Keith!

That's the joy of readers and writers.

Ali
www.shotsmag.co.uk

Amazing! I just installed Mozilla Firefox on my system and as my first search decided to use "PublishAmerica." I was horrified to find several shattering--and really quite believable--sites with information similar to this thread. I have two novels under contract with PA now; we signed contracts within the past two weeks, and I'm now in pre-publication mode...should I go barf? I have four more manuscripts in the "review" stage. I will take the optimistic path and work like a dog for the best result, but I am truly saddened. Wiser? Who knows; it looks like I 'bit' again.

I find it amusing that all the critics of PublishAmerica are unknown wannabes. I am considering using PA if they offer me a contract, and yes, they most likely will. The days of so-called 'mainline', traditional publishing is quickly coming to an end. They can no longer afford the luxury of wasting thousands of trees just so they can accept returns on books that don't sell. Also, I believe over ninety percent of submissions to them never get into print.

It would behoove the PA critics to study the insurance industry prior to the seventies. New York Life, Prudential and several other huge conglomerates sold a product called 'whole life/universal life' then a former football coach in Georgia came on the scene with the concept of 'buy term insurance and invest the difference in the savings on the premium in an annuity or mutual fund. By the mid-eighties the A.L Williams Marketing company sold more insurance than Prudential!
Art Williams was villified by the industry and called a crook but, today all those "mainline, traditional;" companies are selling term insurance.
Whole life insurance is a scam that literally stole billions of dollars from American consumers and Art Williams blew the lid off that. He became a multi-millionaire and made several others rich while at the same time saving the American people billions in premiums for a product that offered 'cash value' but, the beneficiary lost it when the insured died! That's how the traditional companies made their billions!
If you happen to be "Slick Willy" or Mrs. Slick Willy you can demand a million dollar advance but, for those unknown critics on the web sites most probably will NEVER get published.
Myke Britt

Myke Britt, it appears that you haven't researched one name among those posting the opinions you just trashed. Otherwise, you'd know that some of those offering free advice are very well known within the publishing industry.

As to your insurance analogy, you're entirely wrong. I worked as a licensed insurance agent several decades ago. Whole life insurance is not a scam. Term life insurance is nothing new. Both have been around much longer than you hint at and term insurance certainly was not introduced by A.L. Williams. By the way, it's quite clear from how you describe whole life that you understand little of the concept of insurance and cash value.

In the meantime, if you want your opinion to be equally valued as those of others, do some honest research on what you're discussing and who you're discussing it with. Otherwise, you come off sounding like a wounded troll.

Dave, spoken like a true brainwashed whole life insurance agent... You know very well any agent offering term insurance to a client would be fired at once if the big boys found out he was pushing term and trying to do what was best for his client. You must know A.L Williams changed the way insurance is viewed today otherwise why are all the big companies on the term bandwagon now? I understand the whole life insurance product very well. I replaced many of their faulty policies giving my clients ten times the coverage for about half the premium.
As for the well kown authors critizing PA they seem to spend all their time on these boards whining about no book returns. When do they have time to write??

Myke,

Please go use PublishAmerica.

Thanks.

In case you missed it:

PublishAmerica gets hoaxed

How many hits do you average per day on thie website?? One? Or it seems more like one per week. Hope your books are more successful.. You ARE a writer , right??

Myke--apparently you don't understand what you're posting on. This isn't a web forum--it's the COMMENTS section of a year-old entry on my personal blog.

If you need any other stupendously obvious thing clarified, please don't hesitate to post.

And please--do use PublishAmerica. I was wrong. They're perfect for you.

Keith, I like you already. (grin) I just attached the file, "finalproof" to meet the dead(not a loose term at all!!)line of PublishAmerica's butchery to my first book. Yeah, I know I need to improve and that is why I refuse to use self-publishers, subsidy publishers or vanity publishers. I WANT an editor to work with me, to guide me, critique my work for better or worse.

Although I am currently naive about the publishing industry, PublishAmerica has given me a great motivation to become educated prior to submitting my next book to ANYONE. Fortunately, the scam I have been suckered into was with my "samples" and not my first novel of a trilogy. I am now letting the novel collect a little dust while I continue to write the second in the set of three and learn more of the do's and don'ts of getting published.

My first book was merely poetry and short stories of which PublishAmerica butchered with their "professional" editing. Not only do they not understand "stanzas," they do not know how to indent a paragraph even though the submission had that all done for them. They simply "edited" it undone. They also misspelled words that were spelled correctly in the original manuscript. They spent months making slop of my writing and gave me only 15 days to UNDO their creativity. I have even asked them to NOT publish my work and allow me to claim breech of contract because no where does my contract state it would be only in paperback. Item # 2 of the contract states: “The Publisher agrees to produce the said literary work in book form, in such format, type and style of paper, jacket and binding as will make the volume attractive and substantial-looking.” This led me to believe they would produce both a jacket and binding. This leaves the unaware innocently believing their book will be bound with quality hardcover.

In addition to the butchery of my book, they seem to be confused about what they can produce. First, after inquiring about the binding (after of course I signed the contract), I was told that they could ONLY produce paperback. After an email in response to this, I get told that because of "marketing" they "choose" to produce my book in paperback. What a slap in the face!!!! It is poetry and short stories and I already have the market. They could have known this if they simply looked at the list of addresses sent for their "announcement" to be sent out which travels throughout the USA and parts of Canada and Europe. I have already done my part in gaining a market for what I write.

I already have many people wanting this book and all books I write. The people are waiting patiently for a release. Some have requested an autographed copy already. I have tested my talents on websites and correspondence and also with fellow employees. It breaks my heart to know I must autograph and try to promote a cheaply bound "dime-store" paperback. Okay, so I already have enough vanity about my writing talent to expect quality.

Just a note to "Myke".....yes...please use PublishAmerica. They would love you.

Any advice you may have Keith would be greatly appreciated, including via email correspondence.

me agapi kai filia

Herema S. Onar

a postscript here...

One thing about the contract with PA, I was at least aware of the fact that I write books and do not ever wish for one of my "books" to become cyberspace e-books. PA actually removed and also stated in the contract that they will not produce e-books. I want people to read what I write, but not on their computer screens. So, I am from the old school.....and proud of it!!!

tnx again
Herema

The writer you used republished that same book with Behler, another Publishamerica author. Many of them have, but I remain unconvinced that if you make a new company with the same writers and no filter, the product still POD, will be any different.

Mark A. York.....your site is intriguing and your blogs are as well. Searching this string of comments I found no other comment by you among the numerous contributions to the dilema with PA.

Maybe I am a slow-witted nobody, but what on earth are you referring to here? Please enlighten me.

Most often I am not one to enter blindly into another's opinionated blogs, but purpose of gaining understanding and knowledge prior to seeking another publishing of ANYTHING prods my curiosity beyond my ability to sound like I know what I am talking about.

The spambots have found this comment thread, so I'm closing it. Sorry, all.